This post began as a reply to Wes’s comment but quickly became too long. In the comments, Wes says,
Mr. Duck has provided compelling proofs of the rapture being pre-trib. Others may disagree with the rapture or the church’s removal from the earth prior to tribulation. In order to understand the book of Revelations it is necessary to know that it is not written chronologically, it is in someways a back and forth. To put it in layman’s terms, remember the old Star Wars movies then came the new ones that basically gave us the story of how it all began. If a writer in the period of the world war was asked to write about the war, how can he write about all the events that are taking place in various locations? The literary practice would facilitate contemporaneous writings, the text would appear paragraph following paragraphs, this does not necessarily mean that the events are sequential does it?
The next important factor is understanding what the terms used means, e.g. the ‘Day of Lord’ is commonly associated great tribulation in fact this day is the entire tribulation period. The day of the Lord starts at the rapture of the church, continues through the day of the Antichrist, Christ on the judgment seat and ends at the end of the millennial reign. If you don’t get this right, then responses such as what was posted would be evident.
In grace,
Wes
Wes, I appreciate your kindly tone.
I agree that there are a number of different scenes in the Book of Revelation, but I don’t see that this necessarily has any bearing on the rapture question.
Your second point is truly critical and I believe that pretribulationists have misapprehended the significance of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord and the Tribulation are not identical. Jesus says the Tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th Week of Daniel. For then shall be great tribulation…
Certainly, to say that the Day of the Lord comprises a period of 1,007 years is probably necessary to your cause but cannot be substantiated from Scripture. We are not shown this concept anywhere in the Word of God – in fact, a truly literal reading of the Day of the Lord concept will demonstrate that the rapture is prewrath, and cannot be imminent in the sense that pre-trib teaches. A few points:
- For example, God says He will send Elijah before the coming of the great and terrible Day of the Lord. If you are correct, then the next event on the prophetic calendar is not the Rapture but the coming of Elijah.
- Then again, the Word teaches us that the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before that Day. You can find this in Isaiah, Joel, and Revelation – to name just three!
- We are also told the Day will not come first unless the great falling away occurs and the Man of Sin is revealed. The Thessalonians were afraid they were in the Day of the Lord and Paul assures them this is not the case. I think you would agree with me on that but notice how many things must occur beforehand!
- In 2 Peter 3 we should not assert that the Day of the Lord cataclysm Peter is discussing is the end of the Millennium. For how could that fire come, as he says, like a thief in the night?
- Another overlooked facet is the correspondence between Jesus’ summary of the last days (Matthew 24) and the seals of Revelation. Lay them side by side and see that the 6th seal events (the cosmic signs), described in so many places, come before the Day of the Lord. Significantly, it is after these events that we are gathered to the Lord from the four winds. This is the Rapture, and it happens at an unknown time after the Abomination of Desolation. Notice that Jesus said these signs occur immediately after the tribulation of those days.
While no system is perfect, only the prewrath system can make sense of the passages above. Pretribulationists must learn to differentiate between the terms Jesus and the prophets used: beginning of sorrows, great tribulation, Day of the Lord.
Of course, if they did that, they would no longer be pretribulationists!
Sorry, but prewrath doctrine makes a FAR worse mess of scriptures than pretrib.
And I must disagree: John was extremely chronological in his writing, up to chapter 11. Even then, very chronological with minor exceptions: when he introduces us to the two witnesses, who will show up right before the abomination, he then takes us through the last half of the week with them; but when done with them, he comes right back to the midpoint.
Case in point: John was so chronological, he had to hold off on the 7th seal, and cover the two events that will certainly take place before that: the sealing of the 144,000 and the great crowd, too large to number, in heaven.
Since John is so chronogical I have come up with an axiom:
Any theory of Revelation that must rearrange John’s God given chronology, is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.
Coop
I definitely agree with your points on the chronology. I was simply agreeing with the other brother that there are scenes revealed which are discussed outside the sequence, if you will. Some of these can still easily be located in the sequence of seals, as you suggest.
I do not agree that prewrath is “messier” than pretrib on the contrary – the biblical arguments concerning the Day of the Lord put forward by the leading prewrath proponents are unanswerable.
But I’m not even sure that most pretrib proponents even grapple with the prewrath points. The standard pretrib arguments are too conclusory to be considered arguments.
Here is why I say “far worse mess.”
Where does John talk about the beast? Chapter 13.
Where does John mention people fleeing into the wilderness? Chapter 12. Where does John mention 5 different time, a 3 1/2 year period of time? Chapters 11-13. (Each of this is a pointer to the exact midpoint, because each is about an event that will begin at the midpoint, and go to the end.
Therefore, in John’s narrative, the midpoint is in chapter 11 (Some say 12:6.) What “marks” the midpoint for those watching on earth? Of course it is the abomination. Please note that chapters 11-13 come after the seals: ALL the seals, and after the trumpets: ALL the trumpets, except #7.
So where do the prewrath folks put the abomination? Answer: Somewhere early in the seals! The prewrath belief is that seals 2-4 are the antichrist. And that seal 5 is the martyrs of that time of “great tribulation.” (Page 147 – 151 in “The rapture Question Answered; Robert Van Kampen)
Rosenthal wrote: “…God will cut the Great Tribulation short; that is, bring it to a conclusion before the seventieth week is concluded. The Great Tribulaton will be followed by cosmic disturbances, which will indicate that the Day of the Lord is about to commence.” He was speaking of the sun and moon at the 6th seal. (Page 112, The Prewrath Rapture of the Church.)
So in truth, prewrath is about 6 chapters off. Prewrath has to rearrange much of the book of Revelation, and is simply not the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit.
Some pretrib teachers are well acquainted with prewrath thought – but I do not “grapple” with it, because it simply does not fit the intended doctrine of Revelation. They erred in one main point that skewed the entire doctrine: they simply did not understand that the cosmic signs in the sun and moon would be seen twice: once as a sign of the beginning of the Day of the Lord, and again just before Jesus return on the white horse.
Coop
What’s happening in Rev. 11, 12, and 13 is not consecutive but meant to provide additional insight from the Spirit as to what is happening during this time period.
We do see the midpoint mentioned every time the 3.5 years /42 months / 1260 days is mentioned. But, it should be clear that these are vignettes “out of time,” i.e., not consecutive, otherwise we would have another period of 1,260 days in Rev. 12, occurring after the 7th trumpet of Rev. 11. There is also another 42 months mentioned in Rev. 13 as you know. It seems you agree with this, but you haven’t drawn the proper conclusion.
The abomination of desolation is tied to the tribulation, and the main feature of that time period for believers is the persecution. The tribulation begins at the midpoint. Seals 1-6 thus correspond perfectly with the sequence given by the Lord in Matthew 24.
There is only one time when the “cosmic disturbances” happen – and that is after the tribulation of those days. The astronomical events connected to Jesus’ death, although a partial fulfillment, do not square with all the events of the 6th seal.
First, remember John was shown what would be “hereafter.” Second, Jesus was replying to a question about what would be the sign of the end of the age. It’s not discussing His death or the beginning of the Church “age.”
You’ve also overlooked the importance of the entire 7 years by focusing solely on the second 3.5 years of those seven. Perhaps you would argue the position that Jesus is the one who makes or confirms a covenant for seven years, but Jesus referred to the midpoint event as an abomination of desolation and someone or something standing where it shouldn’t. This cannot be a reference to the sacrifice of His own blood causing sacrifices to end.
Thank you for your “Christ is Coming” blog. Good and interesting information. You might well enjoy reading “Pretrib Expert John Walvoord Melts Ice” which was spotted on media personality Joe Ortiz’ excellent blog (“End Times Passover”) on Dec. 29th. The world is getting interesting, isn’t it? Lou
Hi Lou – sorry for the late reply… Christmas busyness! I will check out the article you mentioned!
Peace
What are the 30 days and 45 days under “Day of Our Lord”? (chart posted 6/22/09).
Are they within the 7 years of Tribulation, or just after?
I think most would say that these are outside the 70th week of Daniel (as you said, after the Tribulation). It is more accurate and helps our understanding if we do not refer to the entire 7-year period as the Tribulation. Remember that the Great Tribulation does not begin until the midpoint of the 7 years. It is also cut short so that it does not last an entire 3.5 years. We would do better to refer to these 7 years as the 70th week of Daniel.
I just realized I didn’t address your “what” question. There are a number of theories about what they are. The 30-day period is seen by many as the actual war campaign which culminates at Armageddon. The additional 45 days may relate to purification of the land or the Temple precincts. It’s interesting to note that there are always 75 days from the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) to Hanukkah, which represents purification.